Rana Mitter is a Professor of History and Politics of Modern China at Oxford University. Prof. Mitter has published on the political and cultural history of twentieth-century China, and is currently working on the connections between war and nationalism in China from the 1930s to the present. His interests include the Republican period (1912-1949), the Cold War and Sino-Japanese relations.
On the afternoon of Nov 7, Prof. Mitter presented his paper "Learning from Wartime: The Lessons of China's Experience of World War II in the Global Context of the 21st Century." Andrew Yang, reporter of PKU English News Website, was able to interview Prof. Mitter.
A — Andrew
M — Prof. Mitter
A: What do you think is the most important lesson China has learned in the wartime and post-war period of World War II?
M: I think World War II has changed its meaning for China over the last 60 years. But I think one of the most important things that have happened in recent years is that China has become more aware that it was part of a world war.
For a very long time, the story that was told about China during that period was a story we know very well - the story was about Yan'an, about the rise of Mao Zedong, and about the way in which China pursued policies like self-reliance (Zi Li Geng Sheng) because of what it learned from being besieged by both the KMT and also the Japanese during the war.
Of course these are, historically, very important lessons. But the nature of the historical understanding in China has changed in the last 20 years. That is largely because of changes within China itself, and is mostly not to do with foreigners or international trends, but changes in China about how it looks at its own history. And I think, in the last 20 years, because China has been famously taking part in the reform and opening up, being part of a wider world in terms of trade, culture and economics. That's also begun to happen for history. The aspect of China's international experience during the war that has now become much more stressed is that it is part of a world war, so it was an ally of the US, the Soviet Union and of course with Britain. We tend to forget it now because Britain is no longer as major a power as it was. These were the four major allies in World War II, a situation that is now understood again by historians in China, perhaps better than in the West. Because I'm afraid in the West a lot of people have forgotten that China was a major ally during World War II.
At the same time, I think there's also a wider message that comes from this, as commonly found in China today. That is a message not about conflict in war, but about cooperation. In other words, one lesson that I think has been learnt and put forward to the rest of the world is this: 60 years ago, China took part in an anti-Fascist coalition, in cooperation with other countries, Britain, the Soviet Union and US, to fight against Japan and Germany, and operated on the Allies' side in World War II. Today, China also wants to be seen as a power that has a strong role in the international community where it also has a cooperative role. I think that the Chinese government and Chinese people know that it's still quite recently that the rest of the world has got to know China, and a lot of people are worried about the country. I think that it's wrong to be worried about China, but it's a fact that some people are. Using the memory of the wartime period is one of the things that perhaps China is trying to do to remind people that China has, in the past, also cooperated in the international community for a very good purpose. And if people knew more about that history and understood why it was important, maybe they will be less worried about China today. So I think that lesson about international cooperation is one of the ways in which China is trying both to learn about its own past, and use that past to project a more cooperative image of itself in the international community.
A: How can China use its wartime experience to help to deal with the current financial crisis, or even to take the opportunity to become a "responsible great power" economically and politically?
M: The lessons of wartime, in one sense, are very specific to that period, and we have to remember that period was very different from the present day in various ways. In 1930-40s, you could argue that in some important ways China was quite weak, whereas today it's pretty strong - It has great financial power; its borders are safe; and it clearly has a very respected place in the international community. Those things were not true in quite the same way back in the 1930s. So it's important to remember that the two periods are not the same.
Having said that, there are some things I think that are parallels with the period of World War II and now. One of the big opportunities the rest of the world took, including China, after 1945, after victory over the Japanese and Germans, was to remake the world order. And amongst the parts of the world order that were remade in 1945 and afterwards was the financial world order. Many people know the famous Bretton Woods Agreement in which a lot of the financial structures of the whole postwar period were put into operation. And the predecessors of Mao Zedong were involved in those negotiations. One great mistake that was made in that period, which was that very shortly afterward the world soon divided into two during the Cold War, the Western Bloc and the Eastern Bloc. There is an opportunity now to learn from the mistakes of that period. We have gone through big crises, and I'm glad to say that the financial crisis is clear that it's nothing like as bad as during the period of World War II. The situation looks better now even than one year ago. So we are hoping that, maybe thanks to the international cooperation in which China is an important part, we have avoided a really major world crisis.
But something else of the earlier period from 1920s to 1940s tells us that it's very dangerous to have a world that splits up, either ideologically between different types of politics, or financially in terms of protectionism or economies withdrawing into their own borders and refusing to trade with the rest of the world. It seems to me that it is not about to happen right now; I don't think any major economy anywhere in the world is looking to undertake those kinds of solutions. But it's very important, relevant and positive that one of the things China has done is to assure the rest of the world and assure its own people that it will continue to be part of that world political structure - the UN, WTO, IMF and so on, at the same time asking to have greater influence and power in those organizations.
Now I think, partly because people don't know enough history, that maybe policy-makers don't think that much about the parallel period of the World War II. But if they do think about it a bit more, it may give them a useful guide-path as to what might be worth trying now, partly because of some of the developments after the War. It's a good idea to remember the reconstruction of the financial order, the economic reconstruction of much of Asia and Europe, but also to remember the mistakes that we made during that time and to make sure that even if the political situation globally becomes difficult again, we won't fall into the same traps. So I would say it's not just the lessons of the war, but also of the postwar.
A: What do you think has changed in China during World War II became the impetus of China's attempt to boost its status into one of the "Big Four" in the postwar world order?
M: I think China had wanted for a very long time to become a major power in the world, not in terms of wanting to invade or occupy anywhere, but in terms of wanting to have a role in the international system. But for most of the late 19th and early 20th century, the Qing dynasty and the Republican period, this was very difficult because China's position was weak. For example, the students from Peking University during the May 4th Movement talked about the need to oppose warlordism from within the country and imperialism from outside. China had always a sovereignty that was quite heavily compromised, that suffered a great deal because it didn't have equal treaty rights during that period.
World War II in a sense provided an opportunity for the Chinese government of the time as China became very important to the allied powers in the fight against Japan. It was said by everyone from President Roosevelt onwards that it was really important to keep China in the War. This for the first time (in modern history) gave China a high status within an alliance. Never before had China been allied with powers like the US or Britain. And it was not a very easy alliance because the old attitudes, the imperialist attitudes, and racially prejudiced attitudes continued amongst many quite senior people in both countries (US and Britain) even during the wartime period. But at the same time, they were forced to recognize that China had a major role in the wartime period and when war was over, they could no longer go back to the old system where they had special imperialist powers and extraterritorial rights.
In 1943, new treaties were signed, finally giving China equal status with any other power. So 101 years after the Treaty of Nanking in 1842, China finally got its equal status. That was the reason that it was able to rise even higher, and for instance, immediately after the World War II, it became one of the permanent members of the UN Security Council. This was, in some sense, a reward for China's contribution to the wartime effort to fight against Japan, with the fact that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Japanese troops were kept bogged down and pinned down in China by the Chinese forces of both parties during that time.
The previous government was quickly defeated by the CPC in the civil war four years later, so they did not actually have very long to exercise that new sovereignty, but for a short number of years, from 1945 to 1949, the previous government was finally in a position to be sovereign. That was something essentially the wartime period, the war against Japanese, enabled them to do because it (the war) forced the rest of the world into acknowledging China's contribution and also giving China an equal status.
A: Do you think China's particular role in this financial crisis will encourage people from outside China to form a different understanding or a renewed understanding of China's wartime experience? And how will this different understanding be a potential building block to bind China into the international community and change its current role?
M: I hope people who have recognized that China now has a major role in the world's financial system will be encouraged to learn more about China's politics and history. I'm not sure that we will necessarily see a direct connection between the current crisis and the past history. But people have come to realize that you can't fully understand how any major power in the world operates without knowing anything about its history. Therefore I hope that Chinese history and politics, both of which are still not very well understood in the West, get further exposure. For instance, people will perhaps buy more books or see more TV programs. They will try to absorb a bit more of an understanding of what's happening in China.
There are also some good signs. For instance, at Oxford University, where I teach, courses in Chinese history and Chinese politics were only introduced less than ten years ago. But they've become very very popular. Each year, many undergraduates want to study Chinese history and Chinese politics. And I suspect the fact that China is so much more in the news on these questions means that the numbers will just keep growing and growing year by year. So I think as the next generation in the West comes to maturity, they are going to understand a lot more about Chinese history, and how it relates to contemporary politics. I think the wartime period will be part of that.
A: Will a wider project of educating the citizenry about the significance of World War II in China give rise to increasing patriotism as well as protectionism or even xenophobia?
M: I don't think there's any reason why learning more about your own history should necessarily make you xenophobic. I don't think the two have to be linked at all. Of course it's possible, but I hope it wouldn't be the case. Sometimes I look at blogs and websites, and it's clear that there are some Chinese websites that are very hostile, saying pretty nasty things about the Japanese. But I know there are blogs in probably every country that have some unusual or even crazy things and China is not any different there. I think there are also a lot of very thoughtful blogs that think a lot about the history, debating questions, not just general questions about the war, but also quite specific things like "what actually happened in the battle of Tai'erzhuang," or "should Peng Dehuai have acted differently in the 100-Regiment Campaign," or "could the government in Chungking have done something different about the Da hongzha (the air raids)." These are clearly people who read a lot of history and use the Internet to think about these questions. So I think it's making them patriotic, but also quite thoughtful and quite informed about what's happened in their own history.
I think that understanding your own history is a very important part of being patriotic — understanding where you come from, the background. But the most patriotic people are those who also ask questions about history. They don't just hear a story from anyone and say "that's the way it was and I believe it without questioning it at all." Instead, it's always important to try to find out "why did these things happen," "how did they happen," "could we think about them in a different way." When you understand those things, then it gives you a more complex understanding of your own history and a greater understanding of why it's important. So I think that it's quite likely that as China learns more about its past during the wartime period, it will encourage a sense of patriotism, but I hope it will also encourage a critical and questioning approach to the past in general.
Transcript by: Jacques
Edited by: Andrew Yang
